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Discussion on Predestination and the unsaved

November 16th, 2015

November 16, 2015

I have a question that I am trying to sort out in my head, unsuccessfully. My pastor was talking about predestination, God’s sovereignty, and free will yesterday. John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” These are those people who are predestined for heaven (Romans 8:30), correct? If that’s the case, it seems to me that this insinuates that there will be those that are NOT drawn. Meaning they are predestined not to go to heaven, or rather predestined for hell. If this is the case, what is the role of these “uncalled” peoples in the grand scheme of things?

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Comments
Stuart Mattfield
Stuart Mattfield Julie, You’ll undoubtedly get many responses that will give the “right” answer. I have my view…mine leans towards Calvinism while adopting molinism. I agree that John 6:44 is saying that no one comes to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Whether or not that means that ONLY the elect are drawn is a point of debate between staunch 5-point Calvinists and molinists (and Arminians for that matter). To answer your specific question, I do not believe Scripture support double-predestination…some are predestined for election, some are predestined for hell. I’ll start there, as there will be many others who will pile onto that point. smile emoticon

Julie Kimani
Julie Kimani I hadn’t heard the term “double predestination” before! I’m afraid this betrays my lack of formal theology training. :|| Looks like there is an article on it though, reading it now!

Gwen Sellers

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Fred Becker
Fred Becker In exodus scripture says pharaoh’ s heart was hardend by GOD. It must have been part of his plan. Scripture also tells us that GOD knew about Jacob and Essau before they were born. He has an ultimate plan for everything. His thinking is way to far above mine.

Jesse Mcphaill
Jesse Mcphaill Good question Julie. Jesus answers it John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” All men were drawn to Christ at the cross, and it is their choice now whether they will receive the free gift of salvation by God’s grace through faith or not (Ephesians 2:8-9). John declared of Jesus, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). “And he,” the Scripture reads, “is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (I John 2:2). God wills that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (I Peter 3:9; I Timothy 2:3-4). There is no one that is created purely for the purpose (at least initially) of being cast into eternal torment. I think we should all re-read John 3:16 in this light. Thank you for your time, and Christ bless you!

Like · Reply · 3 · 20 hrs · Edited
Jason Finch
Jason Finch Ultimately, God chooses to have His glory however He sees fit.

Ed Chait
Ed Chait I believe that Jason’s comment above lines up with Romans 9.

Ambica Kissun Converse
Ambica Kissun Converse Julie, I also believe that if you read the book of Ephesians, it will also help you to understand Election or predestination better. Praying for you that the Lord will give you clarify.

Like · Reply · 1 · 19 hrs
Lori DeGrazia
Lori DeGrazia Julie, the best explanation I’ve found is in the book by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, “God’s Will & Man’s Will, Predestination, Election & Free Will

Like · Reply · 1 · 19 hrs
Julie Kimani
Julie Kimani Lori, I’m going to check this book out! Thanks for the recommendation!

Gwen Sellers

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Dwight Payne
Dwight Payne This same question came up last night when someone asked me, “How do I know if I am really part of the Elect? I think I am, and I think I’m saved, but what if I wasn’t elected to receive salvation?

Rather than go into a discussion about tulips and a bunch of “isms”, I said, “We are in the present. We know what is going on all around us right at this moment.” Then I picked up a ruler that was on the desk in front of me and said, “This ruler represents my life. If I hold it up to my nose and look down it, let’s pretend that is my past. I can look all the way down that ruler and can see all of the events in my past. But since the future is in the other direction, I can’t see it at all. I cannot turn my head or turn this ruler in any way that will allow me to see into my future.”

Then I grabbed the ruler in the middle and held it out at arm’s length to my side so that I was looking at its entire length from the side.
“Now pretend that I am God. God created all things, including time itself. God is outside of time. So He can see my entire life—the ruler—from beginning to the end because He sees it differently than we do. Remember, he can stand back and see the entire ruler all at once because He is viewing it from outside of time. He can see all of my past AND all of my future. He already knows everything I will ever do, every decision I will ever make, and whether I will ultimately accept or reject His gift of salvation.”

So in that sense, I am elected or not elected because God can already see the choice that I will make in my life. He already knows my decision. So does that mean that it was pre-determined and that I “never had a chance” to be saved? Absolutely not. I had as much chance as anyone and it was my decision alone whether or not I accepted Jesus or not. This is why there is no discrepancy between John 6:44 and 2 Peter 3:9. While it is true that “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,” at the same time, God is “not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

Julie Kimani
Julie Kimani Another question (as I ponder this). If all men are drawn to Jesus as Jesse pointed out in John 12:32, then how does Romans 8:30 work into all this? Is this a different kind of calling/drawing?

Ed Chait
Ed Chait This is a question that can be pondered until smoke comes out our ears. The Bible teaches both that man is predestined and that he has freedom of choice. These two things working concurrently are not reconcilable for us, but in God’s economy, they pose no problem.

Like · Reply · 2 · 18 hrs
Ambica Kissun Converse
Ambica Kissun Converse Julie Kimani, the all men in John 12:32 are those who will be saved, it is not universal as some would think. Romans 8:30 is also the same, those in John 12:32 are predestined. This is what I believe because I see it clear in the Scriptures. Hopefully, I answered your question as the other brethren did. I always would tell people go to the Scriptures for their answers, pray to the Lord asking for the Spirit to lead you into all truth. My prayer is that the Lord will give you clarity on your question because He is faithful always. For me, we don’t choose God, He choose us. How it works out for us to respond, it is all Him.

Lea Ann Davis McCombs
Lea Ann Davis McCombs I often think of weighty discussions like this as comparable to the three blind men trying to describe an elephant. Each was fully convinced that the portion he was feeling with his hands was the whole picture; yet there was so much more beyond the experience of each. Each was right and each was wrong. When it comes to fully comprehending the mind of God, we are all blind men!

Like · Reply · 3 · 18 hrs
Tim White
Tim White You probably don’t need to hear another opinion, but predestination is God’s view, not ours. “Whosoever will” is our view. Both are biblical and not impossible to coexist. It would take an awesome God to make both exist. By the way, we have an awesome God.

Like · Reply · 4 · 17 hrs · Edited
Ed Chait
Ed Chait I needed to hear that opinion, thanks Tim.

Gwen Sellers
Gwen Sellers Great discussion! Thank you for asking this, Julie! And thank you all for sharing. I’m learning a lot … Not sure it will be helpful at this point, but you might take a look at http://www.gotquestions.org/double-predestination.html. I’m sure you know we also have lots of articles on predestination / election, etc. if you’re interested in more thoughts on it.

What is double predestination? Does God predestine who will be saved? Does God predestine who will go to Hell?
GOTQUESTIONS.ORG
Julie Kimani
Julie Kimani Yes indeed! I wasn’t aware of the term “double predestination” before Stuart mentioned it. That enabled me to narrow my search rather quickly.

Unlike · Reply · 1 · 15 hrs
Tim White
Tim White A strong case can be made that the destruction and glory that people were designed for before the foundation of the world speaks of this life, not eternity. Pharaoh, for instance, had his heart hardened during the plagues to deliver the judgment of Egypt for their sins and to free the Israelites. However, we do not know his response to the true God after he saw his armies destroyed. No such reference to Pharaoh being eternally lost is made. Just assumed.

Gwen Sellers

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Evan Plante
Evan Plante The option to reject God’s call is a logical requirement for creatures with libertarian free-will (the other creaturely-option would be to make robots). Therefore, when a group of the lost collects, it is a result of the logic and not God saying, “Hey you… stand over there… and YOU stand over THERE.” Their loss is not the result of a determined outcome… but the “either/or” of it can make it feel like it.

Julie Kimani
Julie Kimani Thank you everyone for your contributions! This gives me a lot to think about!

Gwen Sellers

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