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Writer Discussion on how the doctrine of a “Second Blessing” affects a church

May 6th, 2015

My wife and I were talking today about the doctrine of a second “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as a separate and distinct event from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.

In addition to there being no significant scriptural support for this, we both thought it essentially produces two classes of believers. Those who have attained the requirements for or been favored with this second blessing and those who haven’t.

I haven’t had all that much exposure to this however, so I don’t really know how it affects the dynamics of a church. I know it has been a controversial issue for the Body of Christ.

  • Dean Revell Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones spoke much about the second blessing but I would not regard it as a baptism so much as a blessing. I don’t think it’s wrong to expect the blessing but to regard it in such a way that it takes us to another level is wrong and unscriptural. It is a cause for promoting pride. Having had a bad experience with a Pentecostal couple when I was recently converted I think I have learned already!
    May 4 at 2:05am · Like · 1
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit – the moment a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon his conversion. Baptism essentially means “identification.” Once the person is regenerated and possessed by the Holy Spirit, He is identified (baptized) with Christ.
    May 4 at 4:44am · Edited · Like · 3
  • Ed Chait Thanks Dean and Corpuz. I’m wondering what other way there would be to look at a “second blessing” other than as as something that takes us to another level?
    May 4 at 2:13am · Like · 1
  • Michael Karpf There is no “class” of believers; some have it and some don’t. There is no command anywhere in the NT to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. People who argue for it base it on Acts. Acts is transitional in nature; between the OT covenant of the law to the NT covenant of grace. I believe the sign gifts were given for a purpose; to authenticate the words and works of Jesus Christ. With the closing of the canon of Scripture, we do not have the same need for revelatory gifts. And why stop at a “second blessing?” Blessings are showered down on us every day
    May 4 at 3:45am · Like · 5
  • Robert Lowry Is it possible that that they are confusing second blessing with filling with the Holy Spirit? Since we “leak”, it is necessary to be filled with the Holy Spirit regularly, as opposed to the initial indwelling of the Holly Spirit.
    May 4 at 5:00am · Like · 5
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil Yes Robert Lowry. They confused “filling” with baptism or “second blessing.” The biblical “filling of the Spirit” is being consciously controlled by the Holy Spirit on a daily basis not a once-a-week every Sunday experience of “emotional high” which they wrongly thought of as “filling of the Spirit.” In reality, that “emotional high” is being triggered by endorphins not by the Holy Spirit.
    May 4 at 8:53am · Edited · Like · 5
  • Sarah Van Baale I’ve run into this before, so I address it with a question. “Can a believer be without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?” Their answer to that question can be very telling. However, I’d also say very few lay people in charismatic churches understand the theological implications behind the idea of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A few well placed questions usually reveals that most do not understand this concept nor can they support it scripturally. I’d also say that many people explain it away differently with a heavy emphasis on feeling.
    May 4 at 5:12am · Like · 5
  • Ed Chait Why would some have it and some not? I thought God shows no partiality? I do strongly disagree with this doctrine, but I’m trying to figure out the implications.
    May 4 at 5:36am · Edited · Like
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil They actually don’t have it. They fake it.
    May 4 at 5:35am · Like
  • Ed Chait I’m certain there is a spectrum of beliefs about this issue within this group, so I’m hoping we can discuss it constructively.
    May 4 at 5:46am · Like · 1
  • Michael Karpf We already had one person kicked out of this group because he attacked everyone else who didn’t believe in it
    May 4 at 5:49am · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait Well, that isn’t very good dynamics at all on the part of that person.
    May 4 at 5:57am · Edited · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait As often happens, I found a GQ article that expresses what’s on my heart/mind.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Keswick-movement.html

    What is the Keswick movement, and is it biblical?
    What is the Keswick movement, and is it biblical? What…
    GOTQUESTIONS.ORG
    May 4 at 6:13am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
  • Tim White Ed, I also recommend John MacArthur’s work on “Strange Fires”.
    May 4 at 7:35am · Like · 4
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil I have the book Strange Fire..
    May 4 at 7:39am · Like · 2
  • Marilyn Mcclintock Years ago I was given a small book to read by a charismatic friend. I sat down with my Bible as I read ithe book, and found that many of the scriptures used were taken out of context. I decided that those who believed this false doctrine simply weren’t checking it out.
    May 4 at 7:46am · Like · 3
  • Dean Revell You’re quite right, Marilyn Mcclintock. My initial experience of ‘christianity’ was a charismatic fellowship – very little ministry from what i recall but a lot of the ‘gifts’ such as praying and singing in tongues etc. Well it didn’t do me any good. But God’s providence is perfect and it was just a stepping stone in the right direction. What really troubles me about the charismatic movement is that it is not solely confined to protestantism – therein lies my problem !
    May 4 at 8:53am · Like · 3
  • Evan Plante Ed Chait: I recently dealt with a similar question and rehashed it on my own website. Rather than expanding here, I’ll give you the option of exploring or not.( I appreciate your love for the Lord, btw.)

    http://www.mainsailministries.org/…/214-what-is-the…
    May 4 at 9:01am · Edited · Like · 2
  • Tim White It is my experience that once someone goes “charismatic”, they cease growing spiritually, but become pseudo-spiritual. They can be passionate, more faithful, happier, etc…. for a while but are less prepared for the crisis of life that will come. They stop walking by faith and desire signs and miracles. They often jump into the Bible but not a balanced diet of it. They ultimately bow to the idol of “how I feel”. They allow pride to infiltrate their fellowship, seen as Ed described as being the only first class citizens of the kingdom. The damage and lack of growth come in the more dependence upon experience and less dependence upon the completed Word of God. Thus their faith is superficial. I hope I do not offend anyone, but I have seen Church members fall into this and my heart is still broken by it.
    May 4 at 9:00am · Edited · Like · 7
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil Truth offends Bro Tim White. Whether we like it or not.
    May 4 at 9:01am · Like · 5
  • Dean Revell Tim White You have hit the nail exactly. My sister-in-law is pentecostal but as for her walk with the Lord, I think it’s quite shallow. She was quite rude to me once on FB for criticising her view on something and accused me of ‘judging’ her. I think ‘experience’ does become her religion. When real trials come, that will be the test of her faith !
    May 4 at 10:50am · Like · 4
  • Robbie Holmes nailed it Tim, Ed is spot on too, there is nothing like the 2nd baptism or filling of the spirit to produce a hierarchy or class system among believers
    May 4 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
  • Marilyn Mcclintock So true, Robbie. I was in a Bible study from a So. Bapt. church, when charismatics crept in and began luring our people in to their church and beliefs. They fell for it, except for my husband and me. That was the end of our Bible study “fellowship”. They didn’t give us the time of day after that.
    May 4 at 2:06pm · Like · 2
  • Steve Ray Webb My two baptism believing friends tell me that all Christians are equal, it is just that some are more equal than others.
    May 4 at 7:07pm · Like · 2
  • Patrick Thompson I believe that much can be said about this topic, however I will also refer to Martin Lloyd Jones book “Joy Unspeakable”. He makes reference to Acts 1:5 where the Lord told the disciples that they should ‘be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence’. In Acts 2, the term ‘baptism is not used; we are told that ‘they were all filled with the Holy Ghost’. The baptism with the Spirit is always associated primarily and specifically with witness and testimony and service. Thus, the reason the Apostles were waiting for the promise of the Father, which would be needed for empowerment to be His witnesses.
    May 4 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait Thank you all for your comments and personal experience with this issue. A few months after I was saved, two members from a charismatic church who were friends of ours came to our home to guide us into this second blessing/baptism. I didn’t know anything about this stuff at the time, so my wife and I had invited them over because it sounded like something we needed to do and have.

    They seemed to have a very scripted method for leading us through the verses in the Bible that supported this doctrine. We were quickly led through the verses and it was made clear to us that the result of this blessing would be that we would speak in tongues.

    After leading us through the verses, they laid hands on us and babbled over us if I remember correctly. They had done such a good sales job with their presentation that my wife and I didn’t want to disappoint them so we babbled also. They congratulated us and then left. My wife and I looked at each other and didn’t really know what had taken place, but we knew it had been forced and not done in spirit and truth.

    I’m not a completely rigid cessationist like John MacArthur, but there are clear Biblical guidelines for these gifts and I filter and test things through God’s Word. Speaking of which, I love this article by sister Laurel J. Davis.

    http://www.blogos.org/contributors/ldavis/life-box.php

    Life is Like a Box
    Your life is like a box; what you allow in it determines who you are.
    BLOGOS.ORG
    Yesterday at 1:20am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Robbie Holmes there are a few logical problems with it too, if you need a second baptism to be empowered to preach the good news then either most pastors have got it unknowingly or (if not )then those who have not should not be preaching? preaching
    Yesterday at 1:51am · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait Hi Robbie, I didn’t know that part of this doctrine is that you need a second baptism to be empowered to preach the good news from the pulpit. If that’s true, it makes me wonder what the pastors who believe they have this blessing think about think about those who they believe don’t?
    Yesterday at 1:56am · Like
  • Robbie Holmes true, that’s my point Ed, often the second baptism is associated pentecost and how the second baptism empowered the disciples to preach, so if this is the example used then where does it leave preachers (or missionaries) who have not had this empowerment? no doubt all preachers feel the call and hear the great commission, but if you logically apply the 2nd baptism to this scenario then there are those who are supposedly more equipped than others.
    Yesterday at 2:05am · Like · 2
  • Robbie Holmes the other point is that this theory often escalates. most fellowships with 2nd baptism experiences claim miraculous signs that validate the event, tongues, prophecy, miracles, manifestations, extra biblical revelation. Yet when questions are asked rather than demonstrate the claims there follows a cold shoulder and disdain that anyone would call things into question. Ironically the gift of discernment is generally not popular in most of these fellowships
    Yesterday at 2:10am · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait I want to add that I have a great deal of respect for John MacArthur, but I don’t completely agree with him on this issue.
    Yesterday at 2:13am · Like
  • Robbie Holmes Marilyn Mcclintock: yes I had a similar experience, unfortunately I didn’t see anything wrong and even when I did I just wanted it to be right! It is quite common to be rejected if you do question, almost cult like to “protect” the rest of the group from “negative” thoughts or ideas
    Yesterday at 2:19am · Like · 2
  • Lea Ann Davis McCombs Hi Ed. I might be able to shed a little different light on this. As a lifelong Baptist, I had never given this topic any thought, other than to avoid the wing nut branch that seemed to have invented it. Then God taught me differently. Through absolutely no intention of mine, nor participation from anyone else, He did do something in me that I cannot explain except it was a total immersion, a baptism,” in the third member of the Trinity whom I had unknowingly neglected until then. It resulted in an infusion of passion, love, and power for service that continues to this day. I do not consider myself charismatic, as the nonsense and excesses in many of those avenues horrifies me as well. But the presence of the imitation does not negate the authentic. It was after the fact that I had to go searching for an explanation. The book of Acts as well as I Corinthians 14 suddenly began to make sense. DL Moody describes an identical experience, as do many pillars of the faith. Rather than hash it out here, I highly recommend The Counselor by AW Tozer and The Holy Spirit by RA Torrey–neither of whom are wing nuts! Lol! Hope this helps.
    Yesterday at 6:32am · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait Thank you Lea Ann. I I was saved during the “Evangelism Explosion” (EE) days when the Gospel and salvation were generally presented around these parts within a narrow framework. At the time, I even doubted my wife’s salvation because she could not identify a specific moment in time when she had been saved.

    I know you love and adhere to God’s Word and I appreciate you shedding a different light on this.
    Yesterday at 9:11am · Edited · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait I think this article is also relevant to this issue and discussion.

    http://www.blogos.org/churchan…/church-relevancy-truth.php

    And the Pendulum Swings: The Church, Relevancy, and the Truth
    We naturally react to beliefs that are false or…
    BLOGOS.ORG
    Yesterday at 9:25am · Like · Remove Preview
  • Sarah Van Baale Lea Ann I agree with you and have read some of the books you mentioned. I think the real difference here is whether or not it is a “baptism” or an welling up of the Holy Spirit. I think it is just as wrong to discount the idea that the Holy Spirit can well up in us so much that we feel overcome by it just as it is wrong to say that there is a “second baptism.” One would hope that the Holy Spirit would well up in us and speak to us and guide us – but not in a way that brings attention to ourselves or gives us some type of spiritual authority over other believers. I grew up in an extremely conservative RCA church and now attend a Baptist church. Neither church would really accept the idea of an experience similar to a complete filling of the Holy Spirit, but it does happen. However, it doesn’t happen in a way that is meant to draw attention to oneself nor ascend that person to a higher spiritual rank. It is personal, passionate, intimate, and part of a personal relationship with Christ. I would hope that most believers have had an experience where they felt exceedingly close to God and filled with the Holy Spirit. After all God is real. He impacts our lives daily, and we are supposed to seek him out. Sometimes our experiences with him are overwhelming and sometimes they are quiet. Sometimes He speaks through us and we don’t always remember what we said or how it came into our heads. Sometimes it affects our physical being, and sometimes He feels far away and distant. I think we can all agree that the Holy Spirit does fill us from time to time in a very extraordinary way that is personal and overwhelming, but I wouldn’t call it a baptism, nor would I consider it to be a one time event.
    Yesterday at 9:42am · Like · 2
  • Lea Ann Davis McCombs I think the terminology is what throws some people off: baptism vs. filling. Robert Morris of Gateway Church in Dallas gives one of the best scriptural explanations I’ve heard. It is similar to Tozer’s explanation. If you’re interested, here is a link to this sermon: http://youtu.be/L0xXi6Iw2EE

    Receiving the Holy Spirit – Pastor Robert Morris
    Pastor Robert Morris – Words Life or…
    YOUTUBE.COM
    Yesterday at 9:52am · Like · Remove Preview
  • Sarah Van Baale Perhaps it is terminology, but I can guarantee you that there is also a difference. My ex-husband declared himself a pastor and started his own church/cult shortly before our divorce. His authority, he claimed, came directly from God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. During this experience he received the ability to heal, speak in tongues, and extra-biblical revelation, etc. Honestly, I’m not even sure he’s saved; my gut tells me he is not based upon his behavior and his fruits, or lack there of. However, his charismatic following through his guidance, has elevated him to the authority of “apostle” based upon his experiences. I am absolutely confident that his “baptism” and my experiences of being filled are not even close to being the same. As is mentioned above, this whole baptism idea actually creates a type of caste system within the church where certain people are “closer” to God. Unfortunately, most of these ‘close to God’ people are exceedingly far away and use these sign gifts which they supposedly received through the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a means to gratify their personal desires. I’ve seen the inner workings of some very large ministries who operate largely on “revelations from God” and wrought with corruption because people are constantly trying to gratify themselves with money, sex, power etc. So, while some charismatic people may truly have had a personal “filling” of the Holy Spirit, I always ask questions along the lines of what I wrote way above. As a person who loves the Lord deeply and desires to follow Him, I know that my personal experiences don’t cause me to think I’m better than others, but actually give me a bigger heart for the lost. It creates in me a humble heart full of thankfulness, love, and compassion, not an arrogant haughty mindset that demands to be served. I can relate to Tozer and what he wrote about on numerous occasions. I cannot relate to what I see in many charismatic ministries today. They seem to be polar opposites.
    Yesterday at 10:22am · Like · 1
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil All experiences, however “good” or “fruitful” they might be must be scrutinized under the lens of the Scriptures.
    Yesterday at 10:30am · Like · 2
  • Lea Ann Davis McCombs Sarah, as I stated above. I totally agree that much of what passes for the Holy Spirit is nonsense and insulting–one reason I do not classify myself as Charismatic. Unfortunately, the same thing can now be said of the word “Christian.” It is sad, though, that because of so many negative examples of the imitation that the true experience is classified in the same camp. A true baptism in the Holy Spirit results in passion for God’s word, new humility, power for service, and hunger for personal holiness. The saints of old (Tozer, Torrey, Moody) have left us a testament to that.
    Yesterday at 10:40am · Like · 2
  • Sarah Van Baale I agree, that’s what I thought you were saying, I just wanted to clarify because I think charismatic and non-charismatic people view the phrase “baptism of the Holy Spirit” very very differently – so much so that I’m not sure it can actually be considered the same type of experience. I’ve also only read Tozer and Moody, but I don’t recall them using that phrase, though I readily admit, they might have.
    Yesterday at 11:24am · Like · 1
  • Robbie Holmes Sarah Van Baale: thanks for sharing all this Sarah, really appreciate your openness and honesty so thanks and blessings
    Yesterday at 11:30am · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait The reason my wife and i were discussing this on Sunday was because the senior pastor of the Calvary Chapel that we are now attending made the statement, “this church believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit” during his sermon.

    Now, I have attended     since Easter Sunday and i have not observed *anything* that I would consider even remotely un-Biblical outside of his statement, if he indeed believes in this being a separate one-time event in the life of a believer.

    We love the church, so once again, I’m conflicted, although it is not my expectation that I will find a church that I am in 100% agreement with on everything.
    22 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait “We believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and functions as their abiding helper, teacher, and guide (John 6:13, 14:16-17 and 16:8-11; Romans 8:26).
    We believe the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a distinct and separate experie    …See More

    Doctrine
    Bible- We believe that the Scriptures, which consist of the Old and New Testaments, are the fully inspired Word of…
    CALVARYCHAPEL.COM
    18 hrs · Like · Remove Preview
  • Ed Chait Is it reasonable to think that it would be a good idea for GQ’s page about the Calvary Chapel denomination to mention their belief in this false doctrine?
    18 hrs · Like
  • Tim White There needs to be clarification between the common terms “being filled”, “being baptized”, and “being indwelled”. To me, baptism of the Holy Spirit creates the permanent indwelling. Being filled in not so much how much of the Spirit you have, but how much of you does the Spirit have at that moment. In that light, I disagree with Calvary Chapel in their separation of baptism and indwelling.
    17 hrs · Like · 2
  • Chris Jacobson I gotta weigh in and say this. I am disappointed by the apparent disparagement of what could be termed charismatics or Pentecostals. I believe the gifts of the Spirit are real and for today. Let’s start in Acts 2. When the Apostles started speaking in tongues they were led by, and given utterance, by the Holy Spirit. The purpose of this was clearly not to minister to others who could not understand them according to the Bible. greek was the language of commerce in that day and nearly everyone spoke it. The listeners happened to hear Gods’ praises in their own languages but this was not its purpose. Peter addressed these people in one language, assumably Hebrew, and they understood him. He did not need to speak in tongues to minister to these folks, they understood him. 1 Corinthians 14 says this: For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. Peter was, in context, talking about the exercising of these gifts in a public setting starting in verse 3. Verse 4 is crystal clear about the private prayer language, it is to edify oneself. There is NO Biblical principle that says that the gifts of the Spirit, including the prayer language of tongues has ceased. Listen, I get it, some of these churches go overboard and can get into some serious weirdness, I grew up there spiritually. But tongues is one of the things that convinced me that God was really real. I pray in tongues and I believe that it is a BLESSING TO ME. It cultivates a sensitivity to Gods Spirit and blesses me every day and I believe that it is 100% Biblical. I see no Biblical precedent whatsoever that this is is someway wrong. If you don’t like it then don’t receive it. People get freaked out that God is really supernatural, but guess what, HE IS! He puts the super on my natural and it blesses me in a completely Biblical way.
    17 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Tim White LOL, I could open a can of worms, but since I don’t have time to fish, I think I will leave the bait alone.
    17 hrs · Like · 1
  • Patrick Thompson on the comment from Lea Ann regarding D.L. Moody, Tozer, Torrey, and actually Charles Wesley would also be included in this group. In Martin Lloyd Jones bood “Joy Unspeakable”, he mentions all of these men as having received this wonderful filling of the Spirit that completely changed their lives and overwhelmed them with compassion and in the case of D.L. Moody gave him a new empowerment in his preaching. In reading this book, there was never any mention of speaking in tongues, but none the less, a filling of the Spirit.
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Patrick Thompson Ed, I have been a part of a few Calvary Chapels over the years, and I have always respected the fact the pastors that I sat under were good expositors of the Word and they put a high value on the teaching of the inerrant Word of God. I also know that they do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but as a rule, it is not practiced during most of their church services. Chuck Smith, the founder of Calvary Chapel, had an excellent, lengthy teaching on the Holy Spirit on Blue Letter Bible Institute. Over the years I have recommended Calvary Chapels to Christians looking for a church, because I always thought they are solid with the Scriptures.
    15 hrs · Like
  • Lea Ann Davis McCombs For whatever it’s worth, to anyone who is interested, GQ allowed me to present an article in contrast to their official position of cessationism. The article does not address Ed’s original question about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but covers the other topics introduced on this thread. I appreciate their willingness to incorporate other views on non-foundational issues, and did my best to present the balanced viewpoint of those who see no scriptural basis for cessationism.http://www.gotquestions.org/continuationism.html

    What is continuationism? What is a continuationist?
    What is continuationism? What is a continuationist? Did…
    GOTQUESTIONS.ORG
    15 hrs · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Evan Plante I appreciate GQ’s willingness to post such an article as mentioned above (thank you, Lea Ann Davis McCombs) that gives both sides of an issue. I’m sure that we Question Responders disagree on many secondary issues, but scholarship is a process. I am grateful for the people with whom I disagree–but who can support their positions with Scripture and reason.
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Robert Lowry Ed, sometimes I think we get too wrapped around the axle on difficult matters like this. So often we should just kick back and remember that God saved us and loves us, and what’s important is not so much figuring this stuff out, but rather a childlike faith in Him. Psalm 131:1 is always a comfort: “Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.”
    6 hrs · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait I understand and appreciate that Robert. I was thinking yesterday that life was easier and less complicated when I knew less than the little I know now.

    This caste thing that this doctrine produces however, is not something that I can kick back on.
    6 hrs · Like
  • Robert Lowry Christians will be rewarded proportionately at the judgment seat of Christ for the motives and quality of their Christian service, but no matter what constructs fallible humans come up with, in God’s eyes there is no such thing as a second class Christian in this life.
    5 hrs · Like
  • Ed Chait I know that through God’s eyes there are no second-class Christians, but the Bible does not support that we view one another in a way that erodes our equality in Christ.
    1 hr · Like · 1
    Robbie Holmes true we ought not to get too caught up in non-foundational issues but we are called to test things and there are some extra-biblical teachings that we simply cannot ignore. Our task is to protect the sheep from the wolves that look like sheep and that even bleat like sheep every once in a while! Ironically it’s where the gift of discernment is the one gift that is rarely appreciated, accepted or respected. I like the Berean example where its not just that what Paul said was written, but that it was right! Great discussion, worthy of debate, brings back many memories as I read others who have been there and done that too, thanks for sharing.

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