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On Doctrinal Disagreements in Church

March 18th, 2015

I need to share this and ask for your prayers. A few weeks ago, I made a a comment in thread here how I was more excited than ever about going to church to worship and listen. The church had started a new series of Sunday School classes and I signed up for “Old Testament Survey”.

The teacher passed out a handout and began teaching about God making His first covenant. A “works covenant” with Adam which could be understood to be like a Suzerain Treaty between nations. I had never heard an OT survey like this before, so when I got home, I looked up Suzerain treaty and how it relates to the OT. I found out that the church I’ve been attending for I think close to three years now believes in and teaches Covenant Theology. I also learned that Covenant Theology can be associated with Replacement Theology.

So all sorts of red flags go up in my spirit, but something doesn’t jive. I’ve been attending this church for years and have never heard even a hint preached from the pulpit that would make me think I wasn’t in a dispensational church. So after another class where I was taught that the nation of Israel also failed to hold up their end of the “works covenant” God made with them, I sent the senior pastor an email asking him if the church was teaching Replacement Theology. His response was that no, they were not, but some people might think they are because he believes that there has always been just one people of God saved by grace through faith, and that all of God’s promises are for all the people of God of all time.

So he wouldn’t call it Replacement Theology, but that’s what Christendom calls it, so that’s what it is. To clarify things, I sent him another polite email simply asking him, “who are God’s chosen people?”. This was on Monday and he has not responded and I doubt that he is going to. So the upshot is that I’ve been attending a church for years that believes the church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, but I had to take a Sunday School class to discover the skeleton in the closet.

This all came together for me on Monday and I’m still stunned and in shock. I’m not sure what I’m going to do at this point. I’m so upset that what I want to do is stand up in a service and ask the congregation to raise their hand if they believe that the Jews are God’s chosen people.

I need your prayers for God’s peace and guidance and thank you for letting me share.

  • Christopher Dupre Sorry, Ed. It seems like a difficult situation. You might consider meeting with the pastor face to face. e-mails get cumbersome very quickly. It can go smoothly if you write down the points you want to bring up.
    March 17 at 10:11pm · Like · 4
  • Gina Cook Oh no-so sorry to hear this! Praying for you, for your church with what is taking place. We believers seem to find these things where we least expect them. My husband and I are having similar disturbing discoveries in our church although not to the degree you have, yet. Praising God you found out and are now able to be a voice of truth to whoever in your church has an ear for it. Again, praying!
    March 17 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
  • Corpuz Valdemor Avellaneda Ramil That would cause me to run. Red and Green flag in one.
    March 17 at 10:45pm · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait I have a mix of feelings and emotions and I’m not thinking clearly, so I’m just going to pray for now and lean on the Holy Spirit.
    March 17 at 11:03pm · Like · 2
  • Vincent Trigili As a pastor, I would ask you schedule time to sit with him, and bring the Sunday school lesson with you that caused the issue in your mind. Share your concerns respectfully and peacefully and let him bring clarity to his position. Email is great for many things, but a conversation like this will not work over email.
    March 18 at 4:40am · Like · 2
  • Lori DeGrazia Ed, just prayed for you and your church. It’s a shock to realize you’ve been sitting under the authority of those who do not recognize Israel’s purpose and place in God’s plan. Our family attended a church for more than 20 years before I became fully aware of their replacement theology. There had been non-essentials I didn’t agree with but we stayed because we thought it was a good place for our kids and the messages were scriptural. It was when I was serving on the pastoral search committee that I began to research the doctrine of our church and realized how much we disagreed on what I consider to be an essential – Israel’s covenant with God. I actually had to track down one of the district church officials to get the church’s official position on replacement theology! I’m praying The Lord will direct your steps and grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge Him as you work through this dilemma.
    March 18 at 6:59am · Like · 3
  • Timothy Craig Munger Ed, now that you have made this discovery, what will you do?
    March 18 at 7:41am · Like · 1
  • William Brenner I have taken on a few battles in my own church and come out rather bruised without gaining one inch of concession that I might even have a valid point. One of those battles is with Beth Moore dominating the women’s “bible” studies, and if you are familiar, she has strongly moved into mysticism and ecumenicism with Rome. The elders just close their eyes to whatever the women want to do, and they completely shut down any opportunity to even talk about it. There is a whole lot of money pushed into promoting her through LifeWay, who also promote a whole list of other bad teachers.The preaching at my church is good (not Beth Moore), but there are leadership influences that disturb me. I won’t take on the Covenant vs Dispensational battle, because I can find good support both ways–but I think the Covenant people go too far in that direction, and Dispensationalism relies way too much on Darby and Scofield–which I also have problems with. No way to change whole divisions that wide, so I stay out of those discussions. I do think it’s wrong to act like Israel has been replaced by the church and then deny that it’s replacement theology….they all hate that term. They also teach that Dispensationalists are rooting for most of Israel to be wiped out in the end times and they find that abominable. Some battles are too big to take on. Maybe this is one of them.
    March 18 at 8:10am · Edited · Like · 1
  • William Brenner My church, like many others, seems to quickly dismiss you as a troublemaker and suggest that you go elsewhere. I irritate them by staying, I guess.
    March 18 at 8:11am · Like · 4
  • Steve Ray Webb Ed, there are so many positions we can take on so many doctrines that it can be hard, if not impossible, to find a church that completely aligns with our particular personal beliefs. If you move on to another church you are likely to find still another type of doctrinal difference lying in the weeds. Nobody has a monopoly on perfect doctrine. I gave up on finding the perfect church long ago. You need to weigh the positives and negatives and decide if this difference in teaching is sufficient reason for you to leave.
    March 18 at 8:12am · Like · 3
  • William Brenner Right, Steve. I try to weigh the potential results and pick battles carefully. You don’t get many chances to get their attention. Once they see you as a headache, it’s over. You can burn through churches fast. It’s bad enough that the Emergent nonsense is taking over.
    March 18 at 8:14am · Like · 2
  • Sarah Van Baale While I rarely agree with Steve , I couldn’t agree more with what he said above. There will always be an area of disagreement. If it is an issue concerning salvation, those are non-negotiables. And while other issues of doctrine are very important, especially to people like us who love to study God’s Word and feel very passionately about it, non-salvation issues are non-salvation issues. We’re going to get to Heaven and probably be set straight on a few things. I think it is wise to talk with the pastor face to face and express your concerns, but people are quick to get defensive and feelings get hurt along the way if we dig our heels in too deep. Pastors are just people. Deacons are just people. They don’t hold the monopoly on Truth. Some false doctrines are more dangerous than others, so it is best to decide in your heart ahead of time whether this is something you can live with or not in your church. We have had to leave a church, and it was a very painful experience for us personally. But we did so quietly and without noise – just a simple letter to the deacon board rescinding our membership and explaining why. We love our new church, but we don’t agree with them on everything either. My mom always said, if you’re looking for the perfect church and you find it, you better not join, because you will ruin it with your own imperfection.

    I agree with your stance in this matter and think your pastor might be a bit misguided. But every pastor has different levels of education and every pastor has a different level of depth with God. I was shocked to find that in a prior church, I had more Bible education than the pastor. So, approach the pastor with humility but also with the understanding that this might just be an area that you have greater insight into than he does. But don’t be discouraged. God allowed this to happen for a reason. There is a purpose in it. Just be the best representative of Christ that you can be. It is always good to speak Truth in love and try to remain non-argumentative. We don’t have to convince others of the Truth, we just have to speak it. The Holy Spirit does the convincing! Even so, I’ll pray for you. Church matters are never really easy to navigate!
    March 18 at 8:49am · Like · 4
  • Marilyn Mcclintock My husband is in a SS class at our church where teaching on Revelation is totally different from what has been taught in the past. He respectfully brings up the differences in class, pointing to the Word, so that all in the class can hear it. It is obvious that others are having the same questions. A good way to approach it, to me.
    March 18 at 8:54am · Like · 2
  • Ed Chait I very much appreciate all of your comments. I have some thoughts to share but I would like to read through your comments more carefully and it’s late so I’m going to bed. I am blessed in so many ways by being a part of this ministry. The way God ministers to me through you is very loving.
    March 19 at 2:10am · Like · 2
  • Timothy Craig Munger Ed, I know the discovery is hard. But you can ask this question to clarify: how important is this doctrine to me, what is my conviction? If it’s a conviction, it may require you leaving. So to me that’s the primary question. FWIW.
    March 19 at 12:05pm · Like · 2
  • Gina Cook William Brenner, I just wanted to say I hear ya on your statement, “The elders just close their eyes to whatever the women want to do,” regarding Beth Moore. There is this lack of concern among leadership of what women are reading and attending it seems. Beth Moore is just one of the many issues affecting our churches/our sisters. I think it’s mostly due to very few leaders checking it out and taking what is said back to the Word of God. There is also a fear of calling out bad teachings, because they are going to be labeled “witch hunter”. Only a few women I know have sounded an alarm (members of different churches here) and we’ve been put in our place and told to be quiet. Saddens me deeply. Praying for any and all churches experiencing this battle.
    March 19 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
  • Sarah Van Baale Gina, I agree with you. I decided a long time ago I wasn’t going to be part of any “Bible Study” that used a book other than the Bible. I know it is probably too harsh a line to take, but I get so frustrated when ladies read more of these other authors than they do the Bible. Most churches have multiple ongoing issues, so I try to avoid interpersonal drama – especially in women’s “Bible studies” where many wrong ideas are often tossed around. Extra biblical sources, I believe, tend to be the root of a lot of wrong theology within the church. People read “Christian” books and turn to present day speakers as though they are the authority on life instead of turning first and foremost to the Bible. I’m not against reading Christian books; I’ve read many myself. But I think they plant a lot of wrong ideas into people’s heads and stir up discord. Instead of constantly going back to the Bible and sorting out the junk in the resources as they consume them, people blindly believe what they read and hear. Then you end up with a huge following of one particular author/speaker/idea, when we should all be adhering to biblical teaching with much greater unity.
    March 19 at 7:59pm · Like · 5
  • Gina Cook Absolutely Sarah! I agree with everything you’ve said. I too am getting very frustrated and weary of “Bible Studies” with very little, if any, of the Bible. I do not at all think that is too harsh of a line.
    March 19 at 9:12pm · Like · 4
  • Ed Chait Seems like drawing lines is a part of the Christian life.
    March 20 at 3:39am · Like · 4
  • Jed Kramer Wow!! So sorry to hear about this situation you’re in. (I’ve been too busy to fb for over a week.) Drawing lines is NOT the Christian life. It is religious life…totally different. (not fired up at you, just the idea) Our God is the God who adopts gentiles into his family … ingrafted branches. It is our unity that points the lost to Jesus. I’m praying for peace, comfort, and wisdom in this situation, Ed.
    March 25 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait Hi Jed, so you would continue to take your family to a church that you believe interprets the Bible in a way that is unsafe, humanistic, and doesn’t magnify or glorify God? If I leave this church, i’m probably going to go to another “Gentile” church. I love diversity.

    Unity is not as essential as properly interpreting God’s Word. Literal interpretation is what produces unity.
    March 25 at 7:51pm · Edited · Like · 2
  • Jed Kramer Ultimately we must be unified in Christ through his Word. That is the only unity that matters … as you pointed out. I wasn’t suggesting that you must stay or must go. God will lead you to the place he wants you. And, following God’s lead is always the right move. My ‘drawing lines’ comment comes on the heels of a question I just answered regarding variances between Christian denominations, worship styles, etc. There are many issues that are not central to the gospel that divide churches. I also assumed you were referring to your current church doctrine; that it was drawing needless lines between ‘Jews’ and ‘Gentiles’. Sorry for any confusion my assumption caused. I was skimming to catch up on my fb absence.
    March 25 at 9:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
  • Ed Chait Thank you Jed, and thank you for your prayers, brother.

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